*** Revamp of theme count system and new modern replacement format ***

Discussion regarding the site itself. This includes the upcoming Version 7. Also comments about the site, suggestions for V7, questions about XT, problems with your life, and errors — ooh I hates those errors!
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GodzFire
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Joined: April 6th, 2020, 9:15 pm

*** Revamp of theme count system and new modern replacement format ***

Post by GodzFire »

Been meaning to post this for awhile but especially with V7 around the corner it’s the best time to bring it up.
NOTE: This is a long post but worthwhile reading everything.

Short version: There’s a new format that’s a lot better that I think should be considered for the site/file organization.

Long version: This site and many people are still using the old theme count format that was came up with back in the day:
- It was the easiest way to simply number things.
- Information was much more scarce, not easily shared, and no central locations to meet and share.
- Wrestler counts were relatively small and simple.
- There were no sites like YouTube or demand services with access to older shows to go back and check for things missed, especially for older material.

This is no longer the case. With just WWF/E’s 40 year history of using themes, it’s become a complicated jumble:
- Wrestlers have long tenures, multiple gimmick changes, and tag/stable associations.
- With the WWE Network, video media sites, and user collection uploads, we’re still finding new instances of new/different themes being used or earlier usage dates
- Worst, ANY change in a theme is currently counting as a ‘new’ entry, even just a 2 second intro addition. We have people with 15, 20, even 25+ entries because of this. It's insane bloat.

That’s why a revamp to the format and a modern replacement is needed to be adopted. Thankfully, there is a new one that a number of us- including myself- have been using that’s an excellent replacement. You can call it the ‘Yearly Version Count’ for lack of better title. The basic format for a file is this:

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

For a theme that originated for or was first used by that entity:
“{entity name (most recent} {yyyy mm-dd first used} {year order version} – {title} {major theme version, minor rev} {[gimmick if multiple]}”
Ex: Al Snow 1996 12-15 v3 - Alice's Folly [Leif Cassidy]

For a theme that was used by someone, but originated for- or was first used by- a different entity or a team/stable, you create a 'Reference Pointer’ that has the following info:
“{entity name (most recent} {yyyy mm-dd of reference theme usage} {year order version} {[gimmick/association with original reference theme]}" > "{referenced entity format just like the first example}”
Ex: Al Snow 1996 04-15 v2 [Leif Cassidy] > Rockers, The 1988 06-18 - Rockin Rockers – Rock Out v1

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

This format has many advantages over the previous method of keeping track:
- Simple, easy to understand layout and viewing
- Immediately viewable identity of multiple pieces of information in listing
- Universal standard & compatibility between other people (no 1st, 2nd etc based on personal preference, goes solely on date order which is static)
- A fluidly adjustable/changeable count structure (if something new is found, no need to renumber everything, simply insert it at the proper date section)
- Year version numbers immediately show how many new/changed themes a person had in a year
- Theme number versioning easily identifies and differentiates major theme changes from minor revisions
- Gimmicks are accounted for in the same list
- Reference Pointers are used both for providing a full history of an entitiy’s theme usage, whether it was originally theirs or taken/used from a different entity
- Along with the revamped format, for file organization it also eliminate the need for duplicate themes going to multiple entities. You just simply make a reference pointer.

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Insert the "I have no idea what the fuck this guy is talking about" here. I know it might be confusing, so I’ll give two before/after theme counts, the first just utilizing the revamped format and the second also incorporating the Reference Pointer method:

BARON CORBIN:
Baron Corbin 1st: “Echoes” (Intro Edit)
Baron Corbin 2nd: “Fierce Days”
Baron Corbin 3rd: “Superhuman” (Arena Edit)
Baron Corbin 4th: “Superhuman”
Baron Corbin 5th: “Superhuman” (Intro Cut)
Baron Corbin 6th: “New Rules”
Baron Corbin 7th: “New Rules” (V2)
Baron Corbin 8th: “I Bring the Darkness (End of Days)”
Baron Corbin 9th: “I Bring the Darkness (End of Days)” (Intro Cut)
Baron Corbin 10th: “I Bring the Darkness (End of Days)” (Intro Cut V2)
Baron Corbin 11th: “King's Darkness”
Baron Corbin 12th: “King's Darkness” (Intro Cut)
Baron Corbin 13th: “The Good Life” (Alternate Intro)
Baron Corbin 14th: “The Good Life”
Baron Corbin 15th: “The Good Life” (Intro Cut)
Baron Corbin 16th: “Get Ready Ready”

Baron Corbin 2013 05-08 v1 - Echoes (Intro Edit)
Baron Corbin 2013 08-21 v2 - Fierce Days
Baron Corbin 2014 09-18 v1 - Superhuman v1.1 (Arena Edit)
Baron Corbin 2014 10-16 v2 - Superhuman v1.2
Baron Corbin 2015 10-07 - Superhuman v1.3 (Intro Cut)
Baron Corbin 2017 08-08 v1 - New Rules v1
Baron Corbin 2017 08-20 v2 - New Rules v2
Baron Corbin 2017 09-26 v3 - I Bring the Darkness (End of Days) v1.1
Baron Corbin 2018 01-28 v1 - I Bring the Darkness (End of Days) v1.2 (Intro Cut)
Baron Corbin 2018 06-04 v2 - I Bring the Darkness (End of Days) v1.3 (Intro Cut V2)
Baron Corbin 2019 09-23 v1 - King's Darkness v1.1
Baron Corbin 2019 09-30 v2 - King's Darkness v1.2 (Intro Cut)
Baron Corbin 2021 08-27 v1 - The Good Life v1.1 (Alternate Intro)
Baron Corbin 2021 09-03 v2 - The Good Life v1.2
Baron Corbin 2022 01-29 v1 - The Good Life v1.3 (Intro Cut)
Baron Corbin 2022 10-17 v2 - Get Ready Ready

AL SNOW:
Al Snow 1st: (Avatar Theme)
Al Snow 2nd: “Orient Express”
Al Snow 3rd: [Rockers 1st Theme] ⇒ “Rock Out”
Al Snow 4th: “Alice's Folly” (Underscore; Intro Cut)
Al Snow 5th: [Al Snow & Scorpio 1st Theme] ⇒ “Scurry” (Edit; w/ Quotes)
Al Snow 6th: “Scurry” (Edit; w/ Quotes V2)
Al Snow 7th: [Hardcore Holly 1st Theme] ⇒ “Spark Plugg”
Al Snow 8th: “Rock Out” (Intro Cut) by Jimmy Hart & JJ Maguire
Al Snow 9th: “Snow-Man” by Jim Johnston
Al Snow 10th: [Steve Blackman 3rd Theme] ⇒ “Blackman” by Jim Johnston
Al Snow 11th: [Steve Blackman 2nd Theme] ⇒ “Drums in the Night (Part 3)” (Intro Edit)
Al Snow 12th: [Maven 2nd Theme] ⇒ “Tattoo” (Intro Edit)
Al Snow 13th: [Jonathan Coachman 1st Theme] ⇒ “What You Gonna Do 1” (Clean Edit; Intro Edit)
Al Snow 14th: “What Does Everyone Want?”

Al Snow 1995 10-23 - Avatar Theme [Avatar]
Al Snow 1996 02-24 v1 [Avatar] > Orient Express 1990 03-03 - Orient Express Theme
Al Snow 1996 04-15 v2 [Leif Cassidy] > Rockers, The 1988 06-18 - Rockin Rockers – Rock Out v1
Al Snow 1996 12-15 v3 - Alice's Folly [Leif Cassidy]
Al Snow 1998 09-28 v1 - Scurry v1.1
Al Snow 1998 10-17 v2 - Scurry v1.2
Al Snow 1998 11-08 v3 > JOB Squad 1998 11-08 v1 - Armed & Rambunctious
Al Snow 1999 05-02 v1 > Bob Holly 1994 01-29 - Spark Plugg
Al Snow 1999 11-04 v2 > Mick Foley 1999 01-25 v2 - Wreck v2
Al Snow 1999 12-20 v3 - Snow Man
Al Snow 2000 02-28 v1 > Head Cheese 2000 02-28 - Head Cheese
Al Snow 2000 03-27 v2 > Steve Blackman 1999 07-19 - Drums In The Night (Part 3)
Al Snow 2001 11-18 > Maven 2001 10-11 - Tattoo v1.1
Al Snow 2006 08-08 - What Does Everyone Want
(left out European run just for comparison sake)

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

For an additional visual reference, here’s how much simpler and more organized the revamped format looks in a music player and also in a file listing:

Image
Image

So that’s my pitch. Like I said for myself personally, and the people I’ve talked to that have switched to it, it’s been an incredible improvement in both keeping track of theme counts but also on the filename side of things as well. There’s certainly consideration for minor format adjustments like adding a v1 to all years that don’t have any other changes so the listings line up vertically for the first porton and makes it easier to do mass renames/reformats. That’s the great thing about the new format, it’s very modular and adjustable.

I’d love to hear people’s feedback on the subject.
Christopher
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Re: *** Revamp of theme count system and new modern replacement format ***

Post by Christopher »

GodzFire wrote: August 19th, 2023, 8:39 pm Thankfully, there is a new one that a number of us- including myself- have been using that’s an excellent replacement.
...
Like I said for myself personally, and the people I’ve talked to that have switched to it, it’s been an incredible improvement in both keeping track of theme counts but also on the filename side of things as well.
I think this is key. While this format works for you and a number of others, it's not necessarily going to work for everyone. Not everyone does "theme counts" in the first place (I don't, but I may be in the minority). Whether or not one does, exactly what everyone collects (companies, eras, superstars, shows, promos), what/how they track (versions, edits, mixes), where they get their themes (digital platforms, CDs, DVD/game rips, recordings, leaks), all differs and I think that can impact what works for each individual and their collection. I personally feel that filename structure is a bit cluttered for my tastes, but I do see and understand the advantages it would have for others who do things differently from me.

I don't mean for it to sound like I'm just shitting on your idea, because that's not at all my intention. I'm trying to think about it more in terms of the website (not as a database of filenames) and if/how it would be more user-friendly for a broader subset of casual themers. After all, as you said in an earlier post:
GodzFire wrote: August 19th, 2023, 2:00 pm We need to keep in mind while we eat and breathe this stuff there's multitudes of people out there with entirely different knowledge spectrums. This should be comprehensive and able to make sense to the lowest common denominator.
With that said, I'm curious about how your filename structure would translate to the Xylot site. Compared to TerranRich's X-Pac sample page for V7, what would your format look like so that all the info was accessible but in a way that was easily digestible for the "lowest common denominator"?
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Jackson
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Re: *** Revamp of theme count system and new modern replacement format ***

Post by Jackson »

I think this format would look spread out on v7. Not as clean as it could be, but interesting to see how you catalog themes. I gave up on counts awhile ago, I just do "wrestler - theme title".
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Papa Faf
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Re: *** Revamp of theme count system and new modern replacement format ***

Post by Papa Faf »

You're welcome to sort your themes however you want, you're correct that everyone does it differently. But just because you and maybe a few others sort differently does not mean that the site needs to list them that way too.
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GodzFire
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Re: *** Revamp of theme count system and new modern replacement format ***

Post by GodzFire »

Christopher wrote: August 19th, 2023, 9:37 pm I think this is key. While this format works for you and a number of others, it's not necessarily going to work for everyone.
For personal use, you're right. It's ultimately up to them and nothing I can say will change it and I won't try. My post was to show the potential, logic, and reasoning behind the revamped version. And just sharing it in general since some people might not be aware it exists. Like I said that anyone I've talked to who has seen the new format and started using it has loved and adopted it.

For the site however, that's where I feel it's a definite improvement for cataloging and presenting things, and hope there will discussion on implementing it for v7.

I personally feel that filename structure is a bit cluttered for my tastes, but I do see and understand the advantages it would have for others who do things differently from me
Please elaborate if you can.
I'm trying to think about it more in terms of the website (not as a database of filenames) and if/how it would be more user-friendly for a broader subset of casual themers.....

....With that said, I'm curious about how your filename structure would translate to the Xylot site. Compared to TerranRich's X-Pac sample page for V7, what would your format look like so that all the info was accessible but in a way that was easily digestible for the "lowest common denominator"?
Jackson wrote: August 19th, 2023, 10:49 pm I think this format would look spread out on v7. Not as clean as it could be, but interesting to see how you catalog themes. I gave up on counts awhile ago, I just do "wrestler - theme title".
First, a simple fix for people who want the solo counts presents with the first use dates but still include and retain the information I talked about would be to add a column to the left of the information which lists 'Solo' or 'Tag/Stable'. It would be the best of both worlds.

Second, the the revamp format would be modified to fit into V7. It would include all gimmicks/tag/stables in a single listing (Terran said this will be an option so maybe a non issue). The same information just organized in a more optimized and straightforward fashion, something like:
1) [solo/tag/stable] | [yyyy mm-dd] [year version] - [song] [song major/minor version if applicable]
Then the fold out option would include stuff like artist, [source] (instead of album), first used (show yyyy mm-dd format), notes, etc like the old site.
Christopher
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Re: *** Revamp of theme count system and new modern replacement format ***

Post by Christopher »

GodzFire wrote: August 20th, 2023, 2:18 pm
I personally feel that filename structure is a bit cluttered for my tastes, but I do see and understand the advantages it would have for others who do things differently from me
Please elaborate if you can.
Thanks for replying. I will try and elaborate as best I can.

I use iTunes for all of my music where everything is split up into different fields, and I let the program handle the file and folder structure behind-the-scenes. When I look at the screenshots you posted of your collection, I can see how that file structure is visually cleaner for those who organize their themes where it's just file names and folders. I'm struggling to understand how a long string of text would translate into something visually simpler for the website compared to how it currently is.

Looking at an example:

Al Snow 1996 04-15 v2 [Leif Cassidy] > Rockers, The 1988 06-18 - Rockin Rockers – Rock Out v1
  • If I'm on Al Snow's count, do I need to see his name again beside every entry where the theme isn't for that gimmick? It sounds like different gimmicks are going to be able to be sorted and filtered on V7 so that might not be necessary.
  • Are year versions necessary? If the idea is to be able to see how many different themes were used that year, I can just look to the left and see that Al Snow used 3 themes in 1996. I see this as extra info with no real benefit.
  • If we're showing that he used the Rockers' theme with a link, does the original usage date of the Rockers need to be present on that same line? The focus should be on when Al Snow as Leif Cassidy first used the theme, not when the Rockers first used the theme. Maybe it can be somehow added into the info box.
  • I know that "Rockin' Rockers" and "Rock Out" are alternate titles, but will the casual themers? Do both titles need to be listed side by side, or can one just go inside the info box?
I don't know how V7 is going to show different gimmicks, but my idea would be something more like this with the dates being used in place of numbering:

1996 02-24 - Avatar > Orient Express - Orient Express Theme
1996 04-15 - Leif Cassidy > Rockers, The - Rock Out v1
1996 12-15 - Leif Cassidy - Alice's Folly
1998 09-28 - Al Snow - Scurry v1.1


Things like the alternate titles and further information about the linked themes could then be stored in the info box.

Again, this is all coming from someone who doesn't do "theme counts" with my collection and uses a third-party program to organize my music, so maybe that's tainting my understanding of everything. I'm not opposed to a newer, simpler way to count things on the site, but I think I just need more time and perhaps visuals to better understand how your structure would actually look on V7 and not just as a file name.
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EddieK
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Re: *** Revamp of theme count system and new modern replacement format ***

Post by EddieK »

Papa Faf wrote: August 20th, 2023, 2:16 pm You're welcome to sort your themes however you want, you're correct that everyone does it differently. But just because you and maybe a few others sort differently does not mean that the site needs to list them that way too.
Very well said. The main site count has been this way since 2008.
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IAmNeomic
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Re: *** Revamp of theme count system and new modern replacement format ***

Post by IAmNeomic »

I do personally tend to lean towards Godz's opinion, and I do think the current "1st, 2nd, 3rd" system is rather crude and rudimentary. I adopted a similar system to Godz myself, albeit a bit simplified for my own sanity. Took me about 6 months going through and renaming 3000+ files, re-organizing, etc. To me, the old count system we built back in the late 90s wasn't really built with variations and edits in mind. But most of us were kids then, too... God damn, I've been doing this almost 25 years. Anywho, I digress.

For example, The Undertaker's "Rollin'" themes. It doesn't make sense for all the different edits to be 12th, 13th, 14th, etc. when it's not a different theme, but rather the same track with variable intros.

Even if Godz's system isn't adopted, I do think there are aspects of it that can be, such is the dating format. So instead of the listings being:

1st: "Rollin' (Air Raid Vehicle)" (WWE Edit V1 w/ DMW Intro V1)
2nd: "Rollin' (Air Raid Vehicle)" (WWE Edit V2 w/ DMW Intro V2)
3rd: "Rollin' (Air Raid Vehicle)" (WWE Edit V2 w/ No Intro)

They would instead be formatted by date:

2001: "Rollin' (Air Raid Vehicle)" (WWE Edit 1 — DMW Intro V1)
2001: "Rollin' (Air Raid Vehicle)" (WWE Edit 2 — DMW Intro V2)
2002: "Rollin' (Air Raid Vehicle)" (WWE Edit 2 — No Intro)

I dunno, that just makes much more logical sense to me, and isn't a far departure from the current system.

I understand the current counts are "the way things are done" since 2008 (although, in reality, it's the system us old themers came up with in the late 90s, early 2000s), but just because it's a system many are comfortable with doesn't necessarily mean it's good. Even if it's not drastically overhauled, I think there's room for improvement to make things make more sense.
Last edited by IAmNeomic on August 21st, 2023, 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Alex
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Re: *** Revamp of theme count system and new modern replacement format ***

Post by Alex »

I like the idea of replacing "1st, 2nd, 3rd" etc. by the year of use ; it looks better, and it's just like we already do for the PPV listings. Why not make a vote to get everyone's opinion on the idea ?
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